Phantasy Star: Generation 2

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Phantasy Star: Generation 2

Postby Benoit » Thu May 05, 2005 8:33 pm

<blockquote>Just because the developers gratify the player with an ending screen doesn't rationalize that it's canon.</blockquote><br>The ending screen would prove that it actually happened.<br> <blockquote>Here we have it. Of course, Benoit's opinion is the only correct one.</blockquote><br>Thanks for misunderstanding that yet again. Of course I believe my opinion is the correct one. Hey, it's my opinion. Just like you think your opinion is correct.<br>But my opinion sure as hell isn't always the correct one.<br> <blockquote>Wow, and what about your unbelievable inconsistencies? Why, it would seem that those put you at even less credibility, wouldn't it?</blockquote><br>I actually was being consistent, but you're such an idiot when talking about bishoujo games, that you couldn't see it. You're even so stubborn that you don't let me explain it. But I will now, since you chose to bring it up again (you brought up the issue).<p>I said<br>
>" Thank you for mixing things up yet again. Yes, there is a lot of bias<br>against the genre. You think they would review or comment on a specific<br>game to say that? I was showing you sources on Brave Soul, not the<br>bishoujo genre."
<br>You replied<br>
Certainly. After all, you suggested that a magazine that took the time<br>to review the game was biased, so why not? If there's so much bias<br>against the genre, then it must make itself apparent, yes? You<br>claimed that many magazine and or websites are biased against the<br>genre, so why wouldn't they be biased against Brave Soul? But<br>according to you, there were no "biased" reviews. Hm, makes you think,<br>doesn't it?
<br>I repeat. I did not find any negative/biased reviews about Brave Soul on the Internet. If you are so sure that they are there, why don't you go find them? There could be some, I never said that there weren't. I just said I couldn't find them. I even proposed that you find them.<br>That magazine you mentioned is one of the rare cases where a bishoujo game or the genre itself was talked about in a magazine while being biased (PlayBoy is another one of them).<p>Just because there is a lot of bias, doesn't necessarily mean that a lot is written about it. After all, those games don't get sold in a lot of places, so people are rarely confronted by it.<br> <blockquote>How delusional. "Reasoning"? More like opinion. You'd prefer to believe that Bish games are about relationships while I believe that they're about sex. Many others agree with this, and it's true to an extent. Now, do you think can wrap your head around two different opinions? Can you accept that they coexist?</blockquote><br>Your so-called "opinion" is based merely on what other have said about the genre, and they were mostly biased. You never actually took a look at the genre itself with an open mind, much less the Japanese market.<p>I bet you even didn't check out the explanation about the genre from a Japanese bishoujo game player.<p>Just because many other (biased) people agree with you doesn't make it right. I already told you how misregarded this genre is.<p>Yes, of course bishoujo games are about sex! (/sarcasm) That's why there are bishoujo games without any sexual content!<p>It's not true that I said that all bishoujo games are about relationships. There are many subgenres in bishoujo games. I prefer renai bishoujo games, where relationships and love are a big part of the story.<br>There's RPGs, simulations, kichiku (rape), renai, sci-fi, adventure, yarigee, etc. etc. And not all of them have sexual scenes.<p>You're really misunderstanding all this. You're lumping together all bishoujo games as "hentai games", where the focus is sex. In reality, bishoujo is so much more.<p>Translations:<br>bishoujo = pretty girl<br>hentai = pervert<p>Really, you accuse me of inconsistencies, as if you aren't being inconsistent. But you are! Remember the "Figures of Happiness pre-order" thread? You started out by saying that bishoujo games are bad, and after AG3's explanation, you suddenly said that you never said these games are bad! What consistency!
Benoit
 

Phantasy Star: Generation 2

Postby Parn » Thu May 05, 2005 8:55 pm

<blockquote><i>Originally posted by gm2987</i><p>We execpt this opinion and on some level agree with it, however unlike him he belives he is right and no one else can be unless you agree with him.</blockquote><br>And you continue to miss the fact that he doesn't have to accept your opinion, and that your own perspective remains unchanged, regardless of what he chooses. I fail to understand why the issue is even relevant to the conversation, other than extra leverage to drive a point home. "He's just intolerant of others' opinions, so that makes me more right." Whatever.
Parn
 

Phantasy Star: Generation 2

Postby Rika » Thu May 05, 2005 9:00 pm

I have to agree with Parn and Benoit. They make excellent points.
Rika
 

Phantasy Star: Generation 2

Postby Malakai » Thu May 05, 2005 9:13 pm

Did anyone even read my post? %)
Malakai
 

Phantasy Star: Generation 2

Postby Rika » Thu May 05, 2005 11:07 pm

Yes I read it. It also had some interesting points but I disagree. I think Benoit is accepting other other's views but he is making the stronger argument. This is why he and Parn are winning the debate.
Rika
 

Phantasy Star: Generation 2

Postby Malakai » Thu May 05, 2005 11:30 pm

Well it doesn't really apply to you Rika since you kinda just arrived in the thread...
Malakai
 

Phantasy Star: Generation 2

Postby Alis in Wonderland » Fri May 06, 2005 1:52 am

going back a little... i think the motherbrain party topic looked more fun. it had roleplaying and people being relaxed and not inanely debating with each other using bad logic and off-topicness. <p>not that having strong opinions isn't good... <p>but going in endless circles is no good use for it.<p>store it up and cast megid instead. <p>AAAAAAAAAAARGH not the ps2 version!<p>*hides behind pillar*<br>
Alis in Wonderland
 

Phantasy Star: Generation 2

Postby gm2987 » Fri May 06, 2005 2:22 am

<blockquote><i>Originally posted by gm2987</i><p>We execpt this opinion and on some level agree with it, however unlike him he belives he is right and no one else can be unless you agree with him.</blockquote><p><blockquote><i>Originally posted by Parn</i><p>And you continue to miss the fact that he doesn't have to accept your opinion, and that your own perspective remains unchanged, regardless of what he chooses. I fail to understand why the issue is even relevant to the conversation, other than extra leverage to drive a point home. "He's just intolerant of others' opinions, so that makes me more right." Whatever.<br></blockquote><br>I don't need him to accept his opinion he just needs to understand that others exist and hes not right about this to everyone becuase its again, his opinion.
gm2987
 

Phantasy Star: Generation 2

Postby LaconianShot » Fri May 06, 2005 5:11 am

<blockquote>The ending screen would prove that it actually happened. </blockquote> <br>Not really. The facts going against this are many... for one, that it's <b>impossible</b> in the the context of the Phantasy Star universe that this could happen. Sonic Team is stupid, but not quite that stupid. <br><blockquote>Thanks for misunderstanding that yet again. Of course I believe my opinion is the correct one. Hey, it's my opinion. Just like you think your opinion is correct.</blockquote> <br>The difference is that you believe your opinion is the <b>only</b> valid/correct opinion. Whereas I believe that mine is correct, while yours also carries some valid points, such as how some individuals might <b>mistake</b> Nei's <i>bonus</i> revival as canon. You might not have outright said that, but you've certainly illustrated it.<br><blockquote>But my opinion sure as hell isn't always the correct one. </blockquote> <br>Sarcasm, Benoit. I was insinuating that you always believe that your opinion is the only valid one... but of course to you, it's not opinion, it's "fact".<br><blockquote>I actually was being consistent, but you're such an idiot when talking about bishoujo games</blockquote> <br>Oh, I'm the idiot? I guess Almighty Benoit isn't above name calling, is he? And now you say that you were being consistent? Funny, that sounds like a contradiction of what you said earlier...<br><blockquote>It's not always easy to consistently conveying my ideas.</blockquote> <br>Sounds like you admitted to your inconsistency, no?<br><blockquote>Just because there is a lot of bias, doesn't necessarily mean that a lot is written about it. </blockquote> <br>Think about how stupid that sentence is. According to your claims on the earlier thread, the "media" (read as: magazines, books, online sources... things that must be <b>written</b>) have such a huge bias against Bish games. Why, that's funny! You made the media out to have some sort of monstrous bias against the genre, and when you go to find negative reviews, there are none! Weird, because I'm sure if there was this supposed bias, it surely would've shown itself in a review of the game, would it not? I noticed how quick you were in that arguement to jump to the " you just saw that on a biased website" point. How could've I, if there aren't any "biased" reviews? This means that you're one of three things: a liar, an exaggerator or naive. Take your pick. I'm leaning towards a combination of the last two.<br><blockquote>Your so-called "opinion" is based merely on what other have said about the genre, and they were mostly biased. You never actually took a look at the genre itself with an open mind, much less the Japanese market.</blockquote> <br>...says Benoit, master of the Open Mind. Of course I looked in to the subject... thats how I formed the opinion.<br><blockquote>I bet you even didn't check out the explanation about the genre from a Japanese bishoujo game player.</blockquote> <br>I bet you're an idiot, because I read the whole thing.<br><blockquote>That's why there are bishoujo games without any sexual content!</blockquote> <br>Then why are they in the bishoujo genre? If they're exactly like other games, then why are they in the genre? Explain without using the weak "they're about relationships is why" point.<br><blockquote>You started out by saying that bishoujo games are bad, and after AG3's explanation, you suddenly said that you never said these games are bad! What consistency!</blockquote> <br>No, I didn't say they were bad. I never once said that they were objectively bad, you just misunderstood as per usual. I said that the genre is questionable because of the main demographic, which I still take to be middle-aged men who prefer videogame "relationships" to real one. What I did say, however, was that rape videogames were objectively wrong. So, great job once again on making an accurate assessment of my opinion. You never fail to impress.<br>Funny, Benoit, how you always end up alienating your <i>few</i> close friends through your close-minded perspective, lack of tact, intrusive nature, and unwillingness to accept that there <i>might</i> be more then one take on the subject. You know people like Onna (you might as well take that user title down, Benoit), Khyron, Prince Noah, myself. Let's face it: it's hard to understand you, much less befriend you, and yet you tend to shove those who attempt it away. Low blow? I don't care... your intent is apparent to me and thus I make no attempt at saving your feelings. <p><p>[size=small][Edit by LaconianShot on [TIME]1115356556[/TIME]][/size]
LaconianShot
 

Phantasy Star: Generation 2

Postby Benoit » Fri May 06, 2005 1:56 pm

<blockquote>The difference is that you believe your opinion is the only valid/correct opinion. Whereas I believe that mine is correct, while yours also carries some valid points, such as how some individuals might mistake Nei's bonus revival as canon. You might not have outright said that, but you've certainly illustrated it. </blockquote><br>Then what's the fucking problem? We both believe our opinions to be correct.<br> <blockquote>Not really. The facts going against this are many... for one, that it's impossible in the the context of the Phantasy Star universe that this could happen. Sonic Team is stupid, but not quite that stupid.</blockquote><br>Sure there are enough facts to say that it can't. That's partly also why it's a bad idea to include that so-called 'bonus', and even giving an ending screen. Yet the ending screen is still there, and ending screens are usually part of the story.<br> <blockquote>Sarcasm, Benoit. I was insinuating that you always believe that your opinion is the only valid one... but of course to you, it's not opinion, it's "fact".</blockquote><br>Only in the bishoujo game case.<br> <blockquote>Sounds like you admitted to your inconsistency, no?</blockquote><br>Yes and no. You could see it that way, but what it really means it's that it's not easy to convey my ideas, and why individuals like you see holes where there aren't. I'm being pretty consistent, but this may not be all that apparent when writing.<br> <blockquote>Think about how stupid that sentence is. According to your claims on the earlier thread, the "media" (read as: magazines, books, online sources... things that must be written) have such a huge bias against Bish games. Why, that's funny! You made the media out to have some sort of monstrous bias against the genre, and when you go to find negative reviews, there are none!</blockquote><br>I already explained this to you, but you fail to get it. Bishoujo games are a niche market. This means that people don't often get confronted with it. Hence, not often is there someone who writes about them.<br>The huge bias I'm talking about is more like this:<br>-Individual encounters bishoujo games (let's take you as example)<br>-Individual gets biased against the genre, and lumps them together as perverted games<p>I said that I didn't find negative reviews about Brave Soul. You take that as meaning that there are no negative reviews about bishoujo games in general. Am I supposed to see that as you being inconsistent? I guess I am.<p>You once again are saying "OMG he says there are none!", when I really was saying "I found none!". See the difference?<br>[quote]Weird, because I'm sure if there was this supposed bias, it surely would've shown itself in a review of the game, would it not?[/fquote]<br>Since when was Brave Soul the only bishoujo game?<br>Since when did every publication/source have to review Brave Soul?<br> <blockquote>I noticed how quick you were in that arguement to jump to the " you just saw that on a biased website" point.</blockquote><br>I jumped to that when hearing what the website/publication said, because that's typically how biased sources talk about such games. I can say so, because *gasp!* I actually played the game!<br>How would you react if a website said about PSO Ep III: "It's a dumb card game like Yu-Gi-Oh! with almost no story to speak of!"? Wouldn't you call that website biased, based on what it says and your experience with the game?<br> <blockquote>How could've I, if there aren't any "biased" reviews?</blockquote><br>See above.<br> <blockquote>...says Benoit, master of the Open Mind. Of course I looked in to the subject... thats how I formed the opinion.</blockquote><br>Thanks to a biased magazine and a biased HuBBs.<br> <blockquote>I bet you're an idiot, because I read the whole thing.</blockquote><br>So, you did, and you still lump them together as perverted games? Sounds like you didn't understand what was written. You're still stuck in the early 90s when it comes to views on bishoujo games.<br> <blockquote>Then why are they in the bishoujo genre? If they're exactly like other games, then why are they in the genre? Explain without using the weak "they're about relationships is why" point.</blockquote><br>Because, as I explained before (in my posts and through the link to Animetric's page on this), it focuses on pretty girls.<br>Here's a paste from the page which you don't seem to have read:<br>"Before I explain any further, let us first define what bishoujo means. Bishoujo is the Japanese term for "pretty girl", and thus bishoujo games are actually pretty girl games."<br> <blockquote>I said that the genre is questionable because of the main demographic, which I still take to be middle-aged men who prefer videogame "relationships" to real one.</blockquote><br>The "relationships" bit was me talking about Brave Soul, which you chose to attribute to the whole genre. You got the main demographic wrong. While the genre is targeted mainly at adult males, they do not play them because they prefer virtual relationship. Many are married, have girlfriends, and actual social lives.<br> <blockquote>What I did say, however, was that rape videogames were objectively wrong.</blockquote><br>And you call yourself more open-minded than me? I don't like rape games, but if someone else enjoys them, as long as he doesn't actually do it in real life, more power to them. To each their own. But no, you have to say that rape games are bad, and you must think that games with violence aren't bad, while in that mindset, it's just as wrong as rape games.<br> <blockquote>You know people like Onna (you might as well take that user title down, Benoit), Khyron, Prince Noah, myself.</blockquote><br>Only you belong in that list. You know the case with Prince Noah. The others are still my friends, and I don't alienate them at all.<br> <blockquote>it's hard to understand you</blockquote><br>What's that? Do I hear inconsistency of the great LaconianShot?<br>You said before:<br> <blockquote>Whatever you say, though I would argue that you're not all that hard to read. Definetly not the most complex person I've ever met.</blockquote><br>And half of your last paragraph you already said through e-mail. Way to go for repetitivity!
Benoit
 

Phantasy Star: Generation 2

Postby Lord Khyron » Fri May 06, 2005 6:10 pm

95 percent of Bish games are made for the sex. And 95 percent of people who want them are underage children. <p>There are exceptions, where you just harrass the girl to build up enough relationship points to date her and get a cuddling scene.<p>Benoit likes the kind without the graphic sex, and some of them do exist.'<p>Something awful did a review on Brave Soul and there was little sex involved.<p>http://www.somethingawful.com/articles.php?a=1847<p>Benoit likes those types of games, they do exist, but the majority is about TEH SEKS. <p>P.S. This is for the English market. The japanese market is less perverted than the english one. There are still those who want Sexual games, and they are made. The rest of the people want non sexual games and in japan, the NON SEXUAL Bish games far outnumber the sexual one.<p>It's just the english market is more for the SEX games, cause of the underage idiots. <br><p>[size=small][Edit by Lord Khyron on [TIME]1115406374[/TIME]][/size]
Lord Khyron
 

Phantasy Star: Generation 2

Postby Saner2 » Fri May 06, 2005 6:39 pm

what the heck?? Data Memory Girl with pink hair?!!?!? <p>O___O<p>
Saner2
 

Phantasy Star: Generation 2

Postby LaconianShot » Sat May 07, 2005 1:04 am

Seems like we're spinning our wheels, doesn't it? But if chasing your tail for another couple of days will make you happy, then I can easily copy and paste some of my earlier points, as you seemed to have missed them.<br><blockquote>Then what's the *****ing problem? We both believe our opinions to be correct. </blockquote> <br>It's on a whole different level, Benoit, and obviously above your head. Sure, I believe in my opinion, but because of that I'm not completely discounting yours, as you are to me. <br><blockquote>Yet the ending screen is still there, and ending screens are usually part of the story.</blockquote> <br>Operative word: usually.<br><blockquote>I said that I didn't find negative reviews about Brave Soul. You take that as meaning that there are no negative reviews about bishoujo games in general. Am I supposed to see that as you being inconsistent? I guess I am.</blockquote> <br>No, I didn't take it to mean the whole genre, but it's merely logical that if there's such a crushingly large bias in the media, that it would manifest itself in a biased review. In short, you exaggerated.<br><blockquote>And you call yourself more open-minded than me? I don't like rape games, but if someone else enjoys them, as long as he doesn't actually do it in real life, more power to them. To each their own. But no, you have to say that rape games are bad, and you must think that games with violence aren't bad, while in that mindset, it's just as wrong as rape games. </blockquote> <br>Here's where your completely and utterly wrong. The thought of rape is nearly as dispicable as the act. The fact that someone would get <i>enjoyment</i> out of a women getting brutalized, raped and then killed as rape often entails, just sickens me. Taking that which does not belong to you is not right and should not be advocated, especially with something as intimate as sex. You make a comparison with violence? That's not apt at all. Violence can be justified, for example, in PSII... Rolf and Co. wouldn't have done a thing if they were pascifists. Like I said, violence can be justified, but just try finding a situation where rape can be justified. If you enjoy rape games, then chances are you're sick in the head. <br><blockquote> Only you belong in that list. You know the case with Prince Noah. The others are still my friends, and I don't alienate them at all. </blockquote><br>I really won't humilate you in front of everyone, so PM me.<br><blockquote>What's that? Do I hear inconsistency of the great LaconianShot? </blockquote> <br>You took that out of context. You're hard to get to understand you, motive wise and such because of your AS, for most people, but initially you're easy to read. Apples and oranges, Benoit.<br><blockquote>And half of your last paragraph you already said through e-mail. Way to go for repetitivity!</blockquote> <br>And I suppose you didn't repeat anything you said, right? Hm, quite the contrary. And in any case, if I'm repeating myself, attribute it to your lack of understanding, not my redundancy.<p>However, if Khyron is saying that's he'll vouch for your claims, then I will believe them. After all, I Khyron tends to be credible for the most part... much more credible then yourself in situations like these, and much more credible then any lackey you drag from one of your Bish sites.<br>But if you want to continue to chase your tail, I'll leave you be...
LaconianShot
 

Phantasy Star: Generation 2

Postby Gipper » Sat May 07, 2005 1:13 am

<blockquote>Benoit:Yet the ending screen is still there, and ending screens are usually part of the story. <br> <br>LS:Operative word: usually. <br></blockquote> <p>Ok, fine then. Name one game where the ending isn't part of the story.
Gipper
 

Phantasy Star: Generation 2

Postby LaconianShot » Sat May 07, 2005 1:19 am

I'm assuming you want an ending screen that's not part of the <b>canonical</b> storyline, because that's what we're talking about.
LaconianShot
 

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