Anchored Dark Force

[Zucca]

So, when you don't have actual proof for your theory, you start act like that.

I'll end with this short quote:

It's in the script.

[TigerNightmare]

I'm kinda seeing a pattern in this thread.

There is evidence for theory A because
point 1.

No, because it isn't.

point 2.

It may say that, but it's wrong. It is this entire other way. It doesn't have to say so anywhere with any real evidence, it just is. Because. Damn it.

point 3.
point 4.

*ignoring other points*

[BenoitRen]

So, when you don't have actual proof for your theory, you start act like that.

Please read the entire thread. You seem to have missed it. Once again, I've discussed what you quoted before. Discuss that instead of bringing it up again and again. You sound like a broken record.

I'm kinda seeing a pattern in this thread.

Oh, great, now the (wo)man who came in here ignoring most points that were already made is saying I'm ignoring points.

[TigerNightmare]

Has anyone ever told you that you're rather abrasive? Man, by the way.

I have personally read the entire thread, offered up my own theories and then discussed the rest. When you replied to me, I (and many others) tried to merely respond to your assertions, and then you tend to do at least one of the following:
1. Regurgitate something you have already posted as if having said it already gives it more weight.
2. Write a brief statement to contradict someone but not offer anything of substance to say.
3. Act out frustrations towards people who disagree with your solitary point of view.

I think I bore the most fruit from you, trying to get specifics and further evidence for your theory, of which there was none, other than a single vague line that doesn't really make a lot of sense in PSII, and you openly admit that it does not say so in the script and what you say just happens because because.

Re: points, I believe I have made several points and you tend to only address the couple that contradict your primary religious belief that Dark Force can also be created from any old hatred and not solely from The Profound Darkness.

About people "ignoring" your "points", I think you're just getting a little frustrated that these are responses to your repeated, unproven claims about Dark Force. If you walk into a 100 different coffee shops and shout, "Star Wars is better than Star Trek!" at least 20 times, people will say that you're wrong. In that example, some people would agree with you, but you seem to be alone with this wacky belief. What we're seeing here is consensus. Phantasy Star IV says in various versions of the script the definitive explanation for what Dark Force is, and no matter how many times you tell us how you personally interpret these lines, everyone else sees the same thing.

I also seem to recall you ducking out of discussing something in this thread because it was "just a video game." For the 16-bit era, PSIV got into some pretty heavy metaphysical storytelling and deserves mention and recognition, especially since most other console games at the time had one-dimensional or just plain insane villains. If someone else knows of a Genesis or Super Nintendo game where free will and the nature of evil comes up in the story, let me know. Tales of Phantasia kinda goes there, but not really.

[Zucca]

Your assertion about Dark Force is canonically flawed. Le Roof explicitly calls Dark Force "the most intense part of the The Profound Darkness' hate-filled spirit," supporting WING-0's observation.

It's the most intense part of its negative emotions. This is poorly worded in the English script, but clear in the Japanese script:

And so, at certain times, when the seal had grown weak, The Profound Darkness’ pent-up hate separated from its base, took on form, and made its way to Algol. And that, of course, was "Dark Force".

That is enough you to make a theory that states Dark Force can be form by anyones' evil thoughts? Do you take it literally? It's rather like this: "When Profound Darkness has gotten enough it pushes part of his/her spirit trough the weakest part of the seal and it forms into Dark Force." And even if you take it literally DF's are still part of PD only.
You can't be serious. You sound like an Apple fanatic who says that there's only one way. What's next? Zio created The Profound Darkness?
Although with statements like this you make this board more alive. Graz for it.

I think I'll keep myself away from this topic until some new evidences appear.

[BenoitRen]

Re: points, I believe I have made several points and you tend to only address the couple that contradict your primary religious belief that Dark Force can also be created from any old hatred and not solely from The Profound Darkness.

Some of your points weren't points, but rhetoric questions that I didn't feel warranted an answer because the answer would just be repeating what I just said.

You also ducked points by trying to handwave the Japanese script by questioning the translators' skills.

About people "ignoring" your "points", I think you're just getting a little frustrated that these are responses to your repeated, unproven claims about Dark Force.

I'm frustrated that the same evidence (Le Roof's speech) is presented again and again when I've already explained by way of the Japanese script why what I'm proposing is not declared invalid.

I also seem to recall you ducking out of discussing something in this thread because it was "just a video game."

Yes, that one I ducked out on, because as I explained, that sort of discussion gets stupid fast when it comes to video games that present good and evil as opposing forces without questioning what is good and evil. The discussion of "is the Profound Darkness really evil?" is absurd.

It's rather like this: "When Profound Darkness has gotten enough it pushes part of his/her spirit trough the weakest part of the seal and it forms into Dark Force."

See, the problem is that the script clearly mentions it's hate, but suddenly you dub it to be of a spiritual nature.

[Zucca]

So you take it literally. That explains your behaviour. No further questions needed...

[TigerNightmare]

You also ducked points by trying to handwave the Japanese script by questioning the translators' skills.

I think my point was valid, since the PSII translation you linked to was full of imperfections and errors and the PSIV translation of Le Roof you posted, the user who posted it said,

"Here's a translation of the full scene with Le Roof, followed by the original Japanese text (there's one line by Thray near the end, marked [??], which I couldn't totally figure out):

(ETF a couple of things)

I don't know what ETF means, but the previous line at least suggests a lack of total understanding of the Japanese language. Also, this was a moot point, since regardless of if we're talking about this translation, the original Sega releases in English or the May 94 prototype translation, everyone except you recognizes that each version essentially says the same thing, Dark Force comes from The Profound Darkness.

I'm frustrated that the same evidence (Le Roof's speech) is presented again and again when I've already explained by way of the Japanese script why what I'm proposing is not declared invalid.

The problem is that this version of the script you're so enamored with doesn't make your theory valid either. It's just confusing us and making us go, "Uh, it says Dark Force comes from The Profound Darkness there, too." We can't understand how you're making the connection that because The Profound Darkness' hate can create Dark Force, anything else can too. How does that work? The Profound Darkness is a god, or at least, half a god. How's a buncha Joe Nobodies make one and where does it come out of? Their ears? Is it like the pink mood slime from Ghostbusters 2?

Yes, that one I ducked out on, because as I explained, that sort of discussion gets stupid fast when it comes to video games that present good and evil as opposing forces without questioning what is good and evil. The discussion of "is the Profound Darkness really evil?" is absurd.

I disagree. If the Profound Darkness destroyed Algol and escaped, what would it do next? Assuming it could find The Great Light and kill it or whatever, what would it choose to do with its time after that? There's no way for us to tell. Destroy a few systems, level some civilizations. It'd get bored of that eventually. What if it found other beings that were more powerful than itself, and they taught it, nurtured it, instilled within it the belief of the value of all life. What then? Guilt? Would it try to restore everything it destroyed? Even the Christian deity went from being pissed off and vengeful to full of eternal love and forgiveness.

[BenoitRen]

I think my point was valid, since the PSII translation you linked to was full of imperfections and errors and the PSIV translation of Le Roof you posted, the user who posted it said

You criticised the translator's skills when I linked to the retranslated Le Roof speech. Maybe I should have linked to the post instead of the thread, as you only seem to have seen skymandr's attempt. Paul Jensen made a thorough translation further in the thread.

Also, this was a moot point, since regardless of if we're talking about this translation, the original Sega releases in English or the May 94 prototype translation, everyone except you recognizes that each version essentially says the same thing, Dark Force comes from The Profound Darkness.

argumentum ad populum.

We can't understand how you're making the connection that because The Profound Darkness' hate can create Dark Force, anything else can too. How does that work? The Profound Darkness is a god, or at least, half a god.

The idea was proposed to me by someone who regularly speaks with Kodama. I questioned at the time how a Dark Falz managed to appear before the seal's weakening to travel to Earth and come back with the Earthmen. Because regardless of where you think Dark Falzes come from, one did at one point appear near Earth.

I disagree. If the Profound Darkness destroyed Algol and escaped, what would it do next? Assuming it could find The Great Light and kill it or whatever, what would it choose to do with its time after that? There's no way for us to tell.

We're talking about a powerful, hateful entity that is so full of hate that it regularly sends a Dark Falz, a being of pure hate that feeds on negative emotions, to Algol. Its lair is full of evil monsters, and it's so evil that all life that comes near it dies instantly. How does he not qualify as an evil god-like being?

I presented similar points by linking to Neilast's short essay on this, which you promptly dismissed as an irrelevant opinion.

Even the Christian deity went from being pissed off and vengeful to full of eternal love and forgiveness.

I don't think this is a good comparison, as regardless of how God punishes people in the Old Testament, it still promoted good.

It should also be said that the Old Testament is a collection of stories that is 93% fiction to make people behave, while the New Testament is mostly about Jesus' life. So there isn't much of a transition there.

[TigerNightmare]

You criticised the translator's skills when I linked to the retranslated Le Roof speech. Maybe I should have linked to the post instead of the thread, as you only seem to have seen skymandr's attempt. Paul Jensen made a thorough translation further in the thread.

Let me show you this quote again...

"Here's a translation of the full scene with Le Roof, followed by the original Japanese text (there's one line by Thray near the end, marked [??], which I couldn't totally figure out):

(ETF a couple of things)

Again, this point is moot, despite you arguing it to death.

argumentum ad populum.

Heresy
While I would agree that the majority can often be wrong, there are times when the majority clearly recognizes that something is wrong, like Scientology, Harold Camping, slavery, broccoli on pizza, etc. When you're alone in your belief, that makes you crazy. It doesn't necessarily make you wrong (even though you so are), but in the eyes of the majority, you're alone.

The idea was proposed to me by someone who regularly speaks with Kodama. I questioned at the time how a Dark Falz managed to appear before the seal's weakening to travel to Earth and come back with the Earthmen. Because regardless of where you think Dark Falzes come from, one did at one point appear near Earth.

This is a flimsy argument at best. It is based entirely on conjecture and hearsay. So, someone you know who knows the writer/creator of the original game, has this random idea that is suddenly supposed to be canon? Well, hey, I know a guy who is Facebook friends with James Cameron and he said that women are always extra shocked by naked terminators because they always have full-on raging erections. They're programmed that way to be extra intimidating.

Dark Force did influence the Earth people, but did so within Algol. There are only two things that suggest that Dark Force was actually on Earth. One is your one flimsy line from PSII that is extremely vague, the other is pure fan conjecture that forces one timeline in PSIII to be canon, when we all know there is no canonical PSIII timeline. For all timelines to be as canon as the other, we must assume that these events, however they play out, do not affect Algol. Finding Earth is supposed to be a happy ending.

We're talking about a powerful, hateful entity that is so full of hate that it regularly sends a Dark Falz, a being of pure hate that feeds on negative emotions, to Algol. Its lair is full of evil monsters, and it's so evil that all life that comes near it dies instantly. How does he not qualify as an evil god-like being?

This is how Great Light-based entities are affected. We can't be certain that all life forms are affected this way. Yeah, the Earth people, but I still say the Earth people aren't inherently evil and Dark Force just used them (after they discovered the system) to do its bidding. If the Dark Force from PSIII was on Earth, why was Noah's journey a long, lonesome and aimless search? Why not a brief beeline to make it quick and easy? I'm also uncomfortable with a time loop containing events that essential cause themselves.

Even accounting for your cockamamie theory that the Earth people created their own Dark Force, why would this incarnation allow the Earth people to live? You would have to be saying that it brought them to Algol by pure random chance. That's just too much of a leap.

I presented similar points by linking to Neilast's short essay on this, which you promptly dismissed as an irrelevant opinion.

"Look at this person's opinion," is not making a point. I addressed it. It's conjecture. There's no way you can convince me that it's more than conjecture.

I don't think this is a good comparison, as regardless of how God punishes people in the Old Testament, it still promoted good.

It should also be said that the Old Testament is a collection of stories that is 93% fiction to make people behave, while the New Testament is mostly about Jesus' life. So there isn't much of a transition there.

I believe it is an apt comparison. God, in the Old Testament, lacked empathy, and then, after experiencing life as Jesus Christ, drastically changed. God understood us, then. Check out this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7AWnfFRc7g

Dark Force, The Profound Darkness, these things lack empathy. Empathy must be learned. Something that is all-powerful doesn't learn this kind of thing easily. Like Zio said, people are just worms to it.

[BenoitRen]

This is a flimsy argument at best. It is based entirely on conjecture and hearsay. So, someone you know who knows the writer/creator of the original game, has this random idea that is suddenly supposed to be canon? Well, hey, I know a guy who is Facebook friends with James Cameron and he said that women are always extra shocked by naked terminators because they always have full-on raging erections. They're programmed that way to be extra intimidating.

The implication is that he got that he got that Kodama, you know.

Dark Force did influence the Earth people, but did so within Algol. There are only two things that suggest that Dark Force was actually on Earth. One is your one flimsy line from PSII that is extremely vague, the other is pure fan conjecture that forces one timeline in PSIII to be canon, when we all know there is no canonical PSIII timeline.

Extremely vague? It seems pretty clear to me. They outright admit that they were weak people while on Earth, with Dark Falz existing in their minds. It looks to me like you're just trying to handwave it.

This is how Great Light-based entities are affected. We can't be certain that all life forms are affected this way.

You're only addressing part of my argument. What about the hate and negative emotions? Or is all that also dependent on something being 'based' on the Great Light?

This is starting to sound silly.

Even accounting for your cockamamie theory that the Earth people created their own Dark Force, why would this incarnation allow the Earth people to live? You would have to be saying that it brought them to Algol by pure random chance. That's just too much of a leap.

Obviously Dark Falz didn't rely on chance and lead them to Algol so it could use them.

"Look at this person's opinion," is not making a point. I addressed it. It's conjecture. There's no way you can convince me that it's more than conjecture.

You're making it sound as if it's less of a conjecture than what you're saying. Why do you even bother arguing if you're just going to claim everything we say is conjecture?

The way I see it, you introduced a question where there was none. We are led to believe that the Profound Darkness is evil without a shadow of a doubt. Stories where it isn't so clear-cut handle this within their story or at least hint at it.

I believe it is an apt comparison. God, in the Old Testament, lacked empathy, and then, after experiencing life as Jesus Christ, drastically changed. God understood us, then.

Only if you believe that the Old Testament isn't fiction.

Dark Force, The Profound Darkness, these things lack empathy. Empathy must be learned. Something that is all-powerful doesn't learn this kind of thing easily. Like Zio said, people are just worms to it.

Worms which it recognises are sentient with a will of their own, capable of being corrupted. When you unnecessarily kill them (as killing them in no way weakens the seal, and no one in Algol protected or even knew about the seal), you're not just lacking empathy. You're evil.

[Zucca]

They outright admit that they were weak people while on Earth, with Dark Falz existing in their minds.

They say so? Where? In Japanese script?
If so, this could prove that Dark Force travelled to earth.

[TigerNightmare]

The implication is that he got that he got that Kodama, you know.

Did Kodama even write any of the story for PSII or PSIV? We know she and the regular PS team had nothing to do with PSIII and they just had a couple lines of dialogue to mention the ships. Either way, "I know this guy who knows person X," never holds up in court. The PSI Dark Force wasn't even really explained in the game, it was just this alien looking thing that corrupted Lashiec, the once benevolent ruler.

Extremely vague? It seems pretty clear to me. They outright admit that they were weak people while on Earth, with Dark Falz existing in their minds. It looks to me like you're just trying to handwave it.

1. The script does not say in so many words say that Dark Force was on Earth.
2. The script says nothing concrete besides the fact that they knew about Dark Force. It is one line and is never expanded upon.

You're only addressing part of my argument. What about the hate and negative emotions? Or is all that also dependent on something being 'based' on the Great Light?

This is starting to sound silly.

It's subjective POV time. Let's take a look at the recent news about Osama bin Laden being killed. Most of the world is actually rejoicing in the death of this man. Those of this mindset believe that evil was vanquished. People of the opposing view believe that their heroic figure who defended their beliefs was defeated by a depraved, disgusting people. You remember that the Algolian people's lone purpose, their only reason for existence, was to keep The Profound Darkness imprisoned, right? Feeding off their anguish is just becoming a step closer to being free. Being trapped within The Edge must be like a meatgrinder pen overstuffed with cattle.

Obviously Dark Falz didn't rely on chance and lead them to Algol so it could use them.

But, you're saying that the Earth people created their own Dark Force. I was saying, how could this specific Dark Force even know about Algol? Are you saying that Dark Forces across the universe are psychically linked and have a wireless connection to Algol?

You're making it sound as if it's less of a conjecture than what you're saying. Why do you even bother arguing if you're just going to claim everything we say is conjecture?

I'm not saying one person's conjecture is greater than mine, I'm saying that you quoting another's conjecture is a weaker argument than your original conjecture. You're telling me, "my side of the argument is valid because of some other person who has nothing to do with anything," instead of, "point a, point b, evidence supporting this theory because of this and this and this."

The way I see it, you introduced a question where there was none. We are led to believe that the Profound Darkness is evil without a shadow of a doubt. Stories where it isn't so clear-cut handle this within their story or at least hint at it.

PSIV clearly shows moral ambiguity between the different sides of the conflict. Le Roof says that the victor was called The Great Light simply because it was the victor. The Profound Darkness, Dark Force, they were only evil in the eyes of the Algolian people and not even all of them. Chaz felt that serving the Great Light would make him just like Zio. He chose to protect Algol for its people. It wasn't the "right" thing to do, it was just the preferable option, to save their people, themselves, from destruction. Gryz hated Zio, probably Chaz too, but it's not like they hated Dark Force or The Profound Darkness. It just seemed like detached self-defense, nothing else.

Only if you believe that the Old Testament isn't fiction.

Now, you see there, in your knee-jerk reaction to religion, you had me confused with a believer and my point went way over your head. It doesn't matter whether you believe the Old Testament or not. Pay attention to what I'm saying, the context of the story. The Christian god learned the plight of his creations by experiencing life as one first hand. Empathy. Empathy is the key to human understanding. Watch the video I previously posted.

Worms which it recognises are sentient with a will of their own, capable of being corrupted. When you unnecessarily kill them (as killing them in no way weakens the seal, and no one in Algol protected or even knew about the seal), you're not just lacking empathy. You're evil.

You're confusing human societal morality with the subjectivity of evil. Killing them does weaken the seal because they are the sole protectors. Dark Force's purpose is to eliminate the protectors and the seal. It's not like it ever took a moment to let out an evil cackle like Lashiec or Zio, unless you count the PSIII one that ran away and waited around in a box. Algolians ignorant of their purpose doesn't mean they aren't a potential threat. Eusis and Alisa's parties knew nothing of their purpose but they slowed the damage caused by Dark Force anyway. Every child born could grow up to be the next threat to The Profound Darkness' cause. The Great Light cruelly created a bunch of meatshields, knowing they would be inclined to fight for it, not out of loyalty or righteousness, but because it is in their nature of self-preservation.

The Profound Darkness has no reason to feel empathy for its enemy. It knows nothing of the concepts of right and wrong, innocence, mortality, love, loyalty, forgiveness. All it knows is fear, anger, hatred, pain and vengeance. All it can do is lash out and destroy everything until it is free. Saying that The Profound Darkness is evil is just like saying a feral, abused dog is evil.

[IndispensablePeaGuy]

Le Roof explained that Dark Force is essentially an offshoot/extension of The Profound Darkness. In the PS canon, there is no evidence to support that Dark Force is merely a product of people's hatreds. PSIV establishes that the PD, through DF, corrupted the people of Earth, destroyed their homeworld, so they traveled to Algo and force their colonialisation scheme onto Algo via Mother Brain. (If you guys remember Le Roof's speech, it mentions Dark Force destroying Parma in PSII, so that makes the DF in PSII the PD's DF, not the humans.)

It's really that fucking simple. The plot of PSIII has been retconned by IV. The majority of fans regard I, II & IV as truly canon. The last game in the timeline cannot be an interquel. It's retarded.

[Zucca]

It's really that fucking simple.

Tell me about it...

It does not change much things if PSIII is in the same "gameverse" than the other classic PS games. Some consider PSi, PSII and PSIV as the main storyline. Those other just add PSIII events at the end of the timeline. I'm quoting again: "It's really that fucking simple."