Future Phantasy Star III Remake Projects: Doomed?

[LegoMuskCat]

I'm not posting this for myself, but this is about any possibility for a full and complete* remake and what the probability of that happening is. If this is posted in the wrong section, I apologise in advance. Seeing as this is a discussion about fan-projects and not a project itself, I thought it was appropriate to post this topic here.

*Small note about any current "completed" remakes: I'm aware that there is Lysander's PSIII remake, but it only covers Rhys' generation.

What I'd like to see is a full-scale remake, and not one that's shoddily put together or fanservice-y. Of course I can say what I would want in a remake or what I'd like to see, but making demands alone without action won't make those things happen. People can only create so much before life calls, as there are only so many hours in a day and so much that anyone can dedicate to any given project, and I realise this. But I've seen more PSIII remake projects attempted than any other Phantasy Star fangame, and to see that only one of them was finished on any level is a little disappointing.

I'll admit that I'm one of many who attempted it, as PSIII is my favorite Phantasy Star game, easily. But motivation and drive comes and goes, and I end up putting it back down after picking it back up. The one thing that makes me stop and look at other things is if someone else decides to give the remake a shot. I think to myself, "All right, I'll see how their progress goes," and then stop whatever I was working on out of laziness. When I see that activity has died down, I get back to work. It's a somewhat silly cycle when you stop and think about it, but I'm sure that I'm not the only one who does it. :p

Something that I keep seeing in our small fandom is a pattern; a rather bleak one at that when it comes to PSIII remakes, or even most fangames in general. Many are left abandoned over the course of time, or the ones that are finished aren't as polished as they could be, due to lack of resources or little knowledge of coding. I have seen spectacular projects with much promise; ones that look as if they'll be nothing short of fantastic. But then, after a few posts or an honest mention, there's nothing after that. A demo, or just some screenshots posted online as a reminder of whatever potential existed, and that's it.

So what is it that kills fangame development? Laziness? The pressure for achieving excellence? Lack of time, interest, and motivation? Or there could be other factors, I dunno. But these questions are something I do ponder.

Another question: Which do you believe to be the best option for a PSIII remake? Would a rom hack be the best option, given that a full translation was done, or would something scripted from the ground up or with any program be the best bet? I think a rom hack with an inserted JP translation would be a good start to see the full story, what we missed thanks to SOA's initial translation, but I always love seeing fan-interpretation of how they believe PSIII should be done.

[BenoitRen]

I'm going to speak generally here, as I think the failure of PSIII remake projects is only the most visible symptom of a larger problem.

Personally I believe the lack of programming skills is what kills most of them. There's only so much you can do before the limitations of RPG Maker get in the way of your game vision.

Even if you do have the skills, though, fatigue and lack of interest grows the longer the project takes. This is what I think happened with Phantasy Star: Dark Millennium.

Most of these projects are one-(wo)man projects as well. This doesn't help with fatigue and lack of interest either. Often there's no one to cheer you on and help to sustain your desire to work on it. It's tough.

[Tanith]

I pretty much agree with Benoit. PSIII remakes are probably the most visible among fan remakes because the original game had the most to improve upon and fans always get their hopes up for a really good remake of this game (I'm one of those fans).

I can't think of a really large community effort to remake PSIII, so it's a pretty spot-on observation that doing this project alone/with only a few is going to eventually get exhausting. Despite its rush job, PSIII is a much larger scale RPG than its 8-bit predecessors. I think maybe some people that try tackling PSIII remakes haven't really thought about just how grand a project it is.

It's something a lot of people want to try, having emotional investment in the game, which is understandable. The game would have been pretty damn awesome if it had been completed properly originally. It's wonderful that others see its potential, but it's not like making a remake of something more simple, like the original Dragon Warrior (Dragon Quest, whatever).

[LegoMuskCat]

Personally I believe the lack of programming skills is what kills most of them. There's only so much you can do before the limitations of RPG Maker get in the way of your game vision.

Even if you do have the skills, though, fatigue and lack of interest grows the longer the project takes. This is what I think happened with Phantasy Star: Dark Millennium.

I whole-heartedly agree with this, Ben. It can be hard to code, especially when time is very limiting (as is patience). I know the lack of knowledge on the subject doesn't make things any easier for a lot of people who simply don't have the time to dedicate to such a thing.

Most of these projects are one-(wo)man projects as well. This doesn't help with fatigue and lack of interest either. Often there's no one to cheer you on and help to sustain your desire to work on it. It's tough.

So what is the case for those people who do have others to cheer them on? People who I've seen create threads for their projects often receive attention. Unless you mean support from friends. If that's the case, then I've had that problem, too.

[Wing-0]

Personally I believe the lack of programming skills is what kills most of them. There's only so much you can do before the limitations of RPG Maker get in the way of your game vision.

Even if you do have the skills, though, fatigue and lack of interest grows the longer the project takes. This is what I think happened with Phantasy Star: Dark Millennium.

I whole-heartedly agree with this, Ben. It can be hard to code, especially when time is very limiting (as is patience). I know the lack of knowledge on the subject doesn't make things any easier for a lot of people who simply don't have the time to dedicate to such a thing.

Most of these projects are one-(wo)man projects as well. This doesn't help with fatigue and lack of interest either. Often there's no one to cheer you on and help to sustain your desire to work on it. It's tough.

So what is the case for those people who do have others to cheer them on? People who I've seen create threads for their projects often receive attention. Unless you mean support from friends. If that's the case, then I've had that problem, too.

I think Benito forgot to add another big obstacle.
RPGs are MASSIVE in terms of artistic requirements. Individual sprites for each and every important character (usually player characters), monsters, hell, even MUSIC is nothing short of massive for a single person to try to tackle.

If a group of people join efforts in artistic tasks, a good engine is ready for use and a good overseer with PATIENCE and VISION handles things, a good game can be completed.

Time is something few people have these times. I still have illustrations pending for several people like Tanith and a few others, but I just CAN'T find the time to work on them properly.

[Edge]

There have been infinite attempts to remake Phantasy Star III all with failure... The problem with rebuilding Phantasy Star III isn't just what is listed above, but also it was a very unique design... People tend to want to replicate maps, but with upgraded graphics, and this is nearly impossible... I'm not sure how the original PS3 was made, but if you notice it's done with 4by4 16x16 tiles, and then when you copy blocks over each tile to replicate, you end up finding misplacement left and right, such as bridges, and aircrafts, etc... However, rebuilding Phantasy Star III in rmvx, or xp, wouldn't be THAT hard, replicating it's unique maps should be given up on, and you should just focus on doing the best you can looking at the maps from the "Monitor"

Edit: Aircrafts = Aircraft/Sub Dive/Boat transformation areas... Whatever those were called, I forget.

[HTD]

The goal is hard, make no doubt.
It is as many have said the most desired one to remake.
Big questions come into play though, for starters HOW do you remake it.
A simple add more dialogue isn't enough in my opinion.

First there is the overall Story; which needs a vast amount of work to become more congruent and logical

Second there is the mechanics to physically implement into RPG Maker VX (or whatever). Yet again HOW comes into play.

Design needs an overall reconstruction, which is going to please many but alienate the most faithful.

Complete change in battle system, Id go with something like PS4.
That means new battler sprites and animations.

A complete redo on all monsters and boss sprites, ideas and designs.
Not a quick Job to say the least.

Total re-invention of the world map, add atmosphere, depth and less random baroness to towns, caves and NPCs.

Re-worked and New Music.

All of this is quite time consuming.

I do think it is possible but you need help to achieve this.

My main problem with most PS Fan Games, is the lack of understanding with graphics. You should respect that the expectations need to at least equal Ps 4 for fluidness. That is why when I see RTP chipsets mixed with PS 1 and 4 graphics; well it makes me ill.

Another problem is use of code witch Benoit has stated.

The good news, it is the most likely and logical to remake.

[Edge]

Phantasy Star III had amazing music which today is nostalgic... I wouldn't get too crazy with it, and perhaps remix original music for different areas... Battle music was shameful, though.

[Black Sword]

I was talking with Benoit today when I worked out the minimum requirements to successfully remake PSIII.

First, two to three writers to work on the scenarios, dialogue, and PS references. (Tanith! Wanna work together on this one?)

Second, three to five spriters. This may not seem like much, but allow me to explain. First, a lot of pre-existing sprites and backgrounds from Phantasy Star IV can be adapted to the remake. Second, edits of sprites are easier to complete than scratch, and many of the sprites would be edits and recolors (fact of spriting and programming). Last, scratch work requires one dedicated person focused on each scratch design, and even worse if you're including animations, which ties down staff and resources.

Third, five to six programmers. I wanted ten, but Benoit protested that it was overkill. Anyway, programmers would have to deal with battle, engine, etc. Tons of information that has to be processed, written, debugged, tested, etc. I wanted ten to prevent people from despairing at all the coding. They'd also have to decide on the language.

Last, a composer to handle the music. (Though I've a decent supply of remixes that could be used.)

Now, there are design issues that would also have to be dealt with, such as type of battle engine, town layout, dungeon layout, etc, but that would come from collaboration and discussion within the team. Honestly, though, remaking such a complex game requires time. I'd guess two years as completion time, making allowances for real life, delays, and other snafus.

Disclaimer: my credentials include editor and writer of original fiction; sprited a web comic from 2004-2007; fluency in C++; business administration degree, just in case people think I'm BSing.

[HTD]

I was talking with Benoit today when I worked out the minimum requirements to successfully remake PSIII.

First, two to three writers to work on the scenarios, dialogue, and PS references. (Tanith! Wanna work together on this one?)

Second, three to five spriters. This may not seem like much, but allow me to explain. First, a lot of pre-existing sprites and backgrounds from Phantasy Star IV can be adapted to the remake. Second, edits of sprites are easier to complete than scratch, and many of the sprites would be edits and recolors (fact of spriting and programming). Last, scratch work requires one dedicated person focused on each scratch design, and even worse if you're including animations, which ties down staff and resources.

Third, five to six programmers. I wanted ten, but Benoit protested that it was overkill. Anyway, programmers would have to deal with battle, engine, etc. Tons of information that has to be processed, written, debugged, tested, etc. I wanted ten to prevent people from despairing at all the coding. They'd also have to decide on the language.

Last, a composer to handle the music. (Though I've a decent supply of remixes that could be used.)

Now, there are design issues that would also have to be dealt with, such as type of battle engine, town layout, dungeon layout, etc, but that would come from collaboration and discussion within the team. Honestly, though, remaking such a complex game requires time. I'd guess two years as completion time, making allowances for real life, delays, and other snafus.

Disclaimer: my credentials include editor and writer of original fiction; sprited a web comic from 2004-2007; fluency in C++; business administration degree, just in case people think I'm BSing.

Haha, well you have kind of rushed me due to your summary.
I had recently just started work on Phantasy Star 3.
Asking Edge and Tanith to help create an outline and later for them to either write individually or collaborate.

I have already put into action getting RPG MAKER VX battle system to be coded by BigEd (top member of the vx community). This is costing me but it is worth it for all the community.

I haven't got much to show although check out my PSV Revived Topic in fan games for more demonstrations.
But I will lay my cards down on the table so you can see.








Obviously I won't put everything up but you can clearly see the direction I am going in.


Either way you cut it, it can be done in less time using a stable engine like RPG MAKER, it is more an issue with Script/Design/Graphics.

[Black Sword]

I was talking with Benoit today when I worked out the minimum requirements to successfully remake PSIII.

First, two to three writers to work on the scenarios, dialogue, and PS references. (Tanith! Wanna work together on this one?)

Second, three to five spriters. This may not seem like much, but allow me to explain. First, a lot of pre-existing sprites and backgrounds from Phantasy Star IV can be adapted to the remake. Second, edits of sprites are easier to complete than scratch, and many of the sprites would be edits and recolors (fact of spriting and programming). Last, scratch work requires one dedicated person focused on each scratch design, and even worse if you're including animations, which ties down staff and resources.

Third, five to six programmers. I wanted ten, but Benoit protested that it was overkill. Anyway, programmers would have to deal with battle, engine, etc. Tons of information that has to be processed, written, debugged, tested, etc. I wanted ten to prevent people from despairing at all the coding. They'd also have to decide on the language.

Last, a composer to handle the music. (Though I've a decent supply of remixes that could be used.)

Now, there are design issues that would also have to be dealt with, such as type of battle engine, town layout, dungeon layout, etc, but that would come from collaboration and discussion within the team. Honestly, though, remaking such a complex game requires time. I'd guess two years as completion time, making allowances for real life, delays, and other snafus.

Disclaimer: my credentials include editor and writer of original fiction; sprited a web comic from 2004-2007; fluency in C++; business administration degree, just in case people think I'm BSing.

Haha, well you have kind of rushed me due to your summary.
I had recently just started work on Phantasy Star 3.
Asking Edge and Tanith to help create an outline and later for them to either write individually or collaborate.

I have already put into action getting RPG MAKER VX battle system to be coded by BigEd (top member of the vx community). This is costing me but it is worth it for all the community.

I haven't got much to show although check out my PSV Revived Topic in fan games for more demonstrations.
But I will lay my cards down on the table so you can see.








Obviously I won't put everything up but you can clearly see the direction I am going in.


Either way you cut it, it can be done in less time using a stable engine like RPG MAKER, it is more an issue with Script/Design/Graphics.

Fantastic character sprites! Love them! Perfectly fit the PS style! Not so thrilled about the enemy sprite, I do admit.

I'd love to contribute as a writer to your project. I've not the patience for coding, and spriting's a painful process that I don't have the time for these days.

Respectfully, however, I must say I think you're underestimating just how painful coding can be.

[HTD]

That is the best part about it.
I am using RPG Maker VX, I am having specific areas of the game coded by the pro's.
For example: Battle System, Menu System

The rest is just events etc...

As for the sprites, thanks.
The Monster sprite was just a quick design took me about 20 mins for PS Genesis, I just put a little of my work here to show you guys.
This is by no means a topic about the fan game I am making.
When I am ready I'll post a proper thread.
As for working on it, I think any contribution is welcomed but Ideally if we could all meet up on a irc chat or something. Have a good talk about ideas and who should do what.

Back on topic.

This isn't the only ps 3 project being made, I have seen one on Fringes of Algo, although it doesn't copy the ps4 sprite style. It looked pretty promising.

[Tanith]

(Tanith! Wanna work together on this one?)

Cripes, I almost missed this. Sure! We have different ideas for PSIII improvements, but in all honesty as far as doing a remake goes, I wouldn't deviate that much from the original story. I'd flesh it out, of course, and clear up the inconsistent bits, but I wouldn't rewrite it so that all the ladies kick butt and haul the men away by their scalps. I'm not that much of a feminist. ;)

I'm the same way with my PSII fanfics. I try to flesh out the story, and only change it when I need to make it more believable, because there are some things that are simply game devices (I had to retool the whole Darum arc, for instance) and don't translate well to literature. There's no way I'd change PSII's story so drastically that... I don't know... I'd keep Nei alive, or have Anna be an android (even though that would be totally awesome).

Anyway, erm, coordination is all fine and dandy. PM me if you want my email address and other outside ways of communicating.

Resume? Uh. Yeah. *cough* Maybe my fiction writing speaks for itself? I hope so. I've worked for the government (military and civilian) for the last 11 years. I don't have any background relating to English, literature or programming. I can write one hell of a government report, though. ;)

[Missagh]

Just to comment, these sprites are amazing!!

[LegoMuskCat]

My main problem with most PS Fan Games, is the lack of understanding with graphics. You should respect that the expectations need to at least equal Ps 4 for fluidness. That is why when I see RTP chipsets mixed with PS 1 and 4 graphics; well it makes me ill.

Not all fangames are that bad. Well, a lot of them are, but not all of them. :p

Also, you can't expect every last fan who has strong amibitions to do a fan-project to be great with everything. Graphics are huge for some people, but not all (which is why forming teams is a very good idea, people can cover others' weaknesses ^^).