Anchored Dark Force

[BenoitRen]

They say so? Where? In Japanese script?

It's only referred to as "evil" in the English script, but the Japanese script refers to it as Dark Falz.

"Yes. Our planet has been destroyed. Do you want to know why?"
(1)YES- "We were a weaker people then. Even though we knew about the evil inside of us, we didn't surpress it. We took joy in controlling nature; we didn't realize we were destroying ourselves" until it was too late.

Captain-Yes, our home no longer exists. Do you wish to know why? <question 2>

Reply Yes to Question 2- By looking at it now, we must regret that we were fools. We knew the evil force, Dark Farusu, existed in our minds, but was unable to suppress it. We soon began to grow fond of controlling the natural world through scientific means. We only recognized we were killing ourselves when the planet began to crumble before our very own eyes.

Did Kodama even write any of the story for PSII or PSIV?

She was a designer for PSII, but for PSIV she was one of the two directors (among several other roles). The other director was Toru Yoshida, who came up with the original story of PSIV in his bathtub.

1. The script does not say in so many words say that Dark Force was on Earth.
2. The script says nothing concrete besides the fact that they knew about Dark Force. It is one line and is never expanded upon.

The script explicitly says that Dark Falz was in their minds. It can be assumed that Dark Falz was at least near Earth to influence them.

But, you're saying that the Earth people created their own Dark Force. I was saying, how could this specific Dark Force even know about Algol? Are you saying that Dark Forces across the universe are psychically linked and have a wireless connection to Algol?

Perhaps, but I admit to not have an explanation for this.

I'm not saying one person's conjecture is greater than mine, I'm saying that you quoting another's conjecture is a weaker argument than your original conjecture.

I was trying to imply "read what this person says, I agree with it".

PSIV clearly shows moral ambiguity between the different sides of the conflict. Le Roof says that the victor was called The Great Light simply because it was the victor.

This is a case of the victor writing history, but I don't see anything more than that.

The Profound Darkness, Dark Force, they were only evil in the eyes of the Algolian people and not even all of them.

Oh, please. Dark Falz' very existence is based on evil. It makes people suffer and die. It also destroyed the Earthmen's home by manipulating them.

The Profound Darkness being a victim isn't as far-fetched. But Dark Falz? Come on.

Tell me, if the Profound Darkness was meant to be an evil entity, what would need changing to convince you?

You're confusing human societal morality with the subjectivity of evil. Killing them does weaken the seal because they are the sole protectors.

No, it doesn't. They aren't part of the seal; the planets are the seal. There's no need to kill protectors that aren't protecting anything. It's actually a bad idea, as pointed out below.

Algolians ignorant of their purpose doesn't mean they aren't a potential threat. Eusis and Alisa's parties knew nothing of their purpose but they slowed the damage caused by Dark Force anyway.

Of course they did, because Dark Falz did more than just trying to break the seal. It caused them unnecessary pain.

Saying that The Profound Darkness is evil is just like saying a feral, abused dog is evil.

The Profound Darkness wasn't being abused, and such dogs wouldn't attack people if they stayed away.

The plot of PSIII has been retconned by IV.

We've been over this already, and you couldn't prove it.

The last game in the timeline cannot be an interquel. It's retarded.

That's just, like, your opinion, man.

[TigerNightmare]

She was a designer for PSII, but for PSIV she was one of the two directors (among several other roles). The other director was Toru Yoshida, who came up with the original story of PSIV in his bathtub.

Don't you think that if this second hand idea that allegedly came from her direction, Le Roof would have mentioned the threat of Dark Force emerging from any and all possible sources, including themselves, so they would remain vigilant beyond the destruction of The Profound Darkness, especially if she was involved with PSIV and had a say in the story?

The script explicitly says that Dark Falz was in their minds. It can be assumed that Dark Falz was at least near Earth to influence them.

Do we know for certain that it was THE Dark Force that was "in their minds" and not just A dark force? It's a little fishy that the English translation would so drastically change the line from the recurring antagonist to an abstract adjective.

And again, you're taking this in an extremely literal sense. We can assume Dark Force has telepathic powers, but as such, does not exist within a mind, merely influencing them. Dark Force is a physical, living, breathing creature and does not exist as separate, networked pieces within the Earth people's brains. To exist within the mind, it can only be a memory, a thought or a presence. Or a tumor. The English translation suddenly makes so much more sense.

But, you're saying that the Earth people created their own Dark Force. I was saying, how could this specific Dark Force even know about Algol? Are you saying that Dark Forces across the universe are psychically linked and have a wireless connection to Algol?

Perhaps, but I admit to not have an explanation for this.

And this is a huge flaw in your theory. There's just no explanation why a Dark Force independent of the Profound Darkness would want or need to go to Algol. And if there is some kind of interstellar connection felt between Dark Forces created in different planetary systems, this also helps my abstract evil argument, if these things want to help out their own kind.

This is a case of the victor writing history, but I don't see anything more than that.

Does it really matter which side won? One side lost, the other side tried to imprison it and created guardians to protect the prison. One side does not appear to be more evil than the other based on these actions alone.

Oh, please. Dark Falz' very existence is based on evil. It makes people suffer and die. It also destroyed the Earthmen's home by manipulating them.

The Profound Darkness being a victim isn't as far-fetched. But Dark Falz? Come on.

Tell me, if the Profound Darkness was meant to be an evil entity, what would need changing to convince you?

Dark Force is just a weapon. You can make an argument that a sword, a gun, a nuclear bomb, etc. is evil, but, they are not, in and of themselves, evil. Those who wield them may be judged accordingly based on your perspective, however. To convince me that The Profound Darkness is just purely evil, there would have to be something in the story about a way for The Profound Darkness to escape from The Edge without destroying the surviving planets of Algol. With its freedom, The Profound Darkness could either choose to just leave or stay and destroy the Algolians for no reason. If it makes the latter choice, then yes, it can be argued that it is pure evil. Still, the concept of empathy I would say is still beyond the comprehension of an entity that only knows imprisonment, anger and vengeance. Even grown, mature human beings can be incapable of empathy, most notably, the patrons of the ancient Roman Coliseum, where blood and carnage just makes the show, for them, more entertaining. It would be too easy to just dismiss those people as evil. That's just how society was in those days.

No, it doesn't. They aren't part of the seal; the planets are the seal. There's no need to kill protectors that aren't protecting anything. It's actually a bad idea, as pointed out below.

I'm going to bring up Star Trek again. If the Enterprise wants to damage a Romulan warship, it has to either penetrate or circumvent its shields first. Like I said, Algolians are just meatshields.

Of course they did, because Dark Falz did more than just trying to break the seal. It caused them unnecessary pain.

Lashiec caused them pain. Zio caused them pain. However indirect Dark Force's actions, Dark Force is still only a weapon that's trying to break open a door. Any pain and suffering is just collateral damage. Lashiec's guards killed Nero. Neifirst was consumed with hatred because a bunch of scientists wanted to kill her. I think one of the best things we can appreciate about PSIII's story is that everything we experience in the game is an indirect result of Dark Force's actions 1,000 years prior. All the fighting and anguish was just a divided people who knew no better than to remain enemies with each other. Dark Force HAS to operate this way, through manipulation. It can't just punch the planets apart with its fists because it lacks that kind of power.

The Profound Darkness wasn't being abused, and such dogs wouldn't attack people if they stayed away.

You wouldn't say that being imprisoned for millennia qualifies as abuse? You wouldn't say that your one chance for freedom every 1,000 years getting destroyed by your enemy's children every single time wouldn't make you a little bit irate? It wasn't even imprisoned for any crimes it is guilty of, it was imprisoned out of fear. The Algolian people also don't have the luxury of staying away. They're living on the thing's cage so they're gonna get the claws if they don't leave.

[Zucca]

She was a designer for PSII, but for PSIV she was one of the two directors (among several other roles). The other director was Toru Yoshida, who came up with the original story of PSIV in his bathtub.

Don't you think that if this second hand idea that allegedly came from her direction, Le Roof would have mentioned the threat of Dark Force emerging from any and all possible sources, including themselves, so they would remain vigilant beyond the destruction of The Profound Darkness, especially if she was involved with PSIV and had a say in the story?

I think that The Great Light created Le Roof and gave his/hers knowledge about The Profound Darkness and Algo to him/her (Le Roof). Now... There's a slight possibility that The Great Light does not know if Dark Falz can be created by some other than The Profound Darkness. Basically Le Roof thinks that by destroying The Profound Darkness Algol is free of terror. Killing Profound darkness for reason of a) protecting Algo b) or the whole universe? Yes. One more question arises.
If we take PSIII into account then Dark Falz won't perish (or at least they have a change to survive from it) after The Profound Darkness is defeated.
Based on Earthmen leader talk, we can quite safely assume that at least one Dark Falz has tavelled to The Earth.
Maybe The Profound darkness found out that it was easier to "spit" one Dark Force to our solar system than to Algo at the time. And then build an attack force from there. So are actions of The Profound Darkness only limited to Algo?

Anyway I think Le Roof had enough knowledge to give the protectors orders to only destroy the Profound Darkness so that Algol can rest in peace. Because the story tells it that the Profound Darkness is basically the root of all evil and needs to be destroyed. After that it's only matter of time when last Dark Falzes are being killed/destroyed. Destroying the one that created the evil solves the main problem. Simple enough.

[IndispensablePeaGuy]

Tiger is making sense and Benoit is clutching at straws on this subject, as usual.

We've been over this already, and you couldn't prove it.

Well you can't with your "anyone can create Dark Force!" theory - just an opinion, dude.

My arguments on this topic are based on what is said in the script. PSIV retconned III, and the game's conclusion supports this.

[Zucca]

PSIV retconned III, and the game's conclusion supports this.

How it does it?
I'm too lazy to a) read this whole topic again and b) read trough the whole PSIV script.

[IndispensablePeaGuy]

PSIV retconned III, and the game's conclusion supports this.

How it does it?
I'm too lazy to a) read this whole topic again and b) read trough the whole PSIV script.

Then don't bother to contribute.

[BenoitRen]

I stayed away from this thread for the past... year and one month because it made me angry.

It turns out, though, that a phan talked with Rieko Kodama and she says that, yes, Phantasy Star II's Dark Falz comes from Earth.

It's a shame that some people can't understand based on game evidence alone.

[Zucca]

But is it the same one that travelled on Neo Palm (to moon)? Or is it some else that was on Earth already?

MOAR questions arises than answers!

[BenoitRen]

The way I see it, the Dark Falz that appeared on Parma and ended up on the Alisa III is from the weakening of the seal in AW 1284.

[Zucca]

Uh. I need to dig up the book of timeline. But If I recall anything right... That's the time of PSII.

Anyway. Merry whatever!

[etony33]

A few points:

-Le Roof states that Dark Force comes to Algo every 1000 years when the seal weakens. He does not say that Dark Force does not go anywhere else in the meantime. There would be thus nothing PREVENTING Dark Force from going to Earth, although it would be ambiguous either way.
-Profound Darkness needed to destroy Palma so he would be able to escape due to the seal being weakened. If Dark Force actually came from the Earthmen in PSII, then he was doing exactly what Profound Darkness needed despite not having come from him. Possible, sure, but unlikely.
-As it is, PSII is less than 1000 years after PSI, which is kind of weird.

Dark Force going to Earth (and it isn't "traveling all the way to Earth considering Profound Darkness was in another dimension) and corrupting the Earthmen is plausible, if not probable. Dark Force actually coming FROM the Earthmen? There's really nothing that would indicate that was the way it worked (although Le Roof never said Dark Force was exclusive to The Profound Darkness, he did say that it was a manifestation of PD's hatred, not anyone else's. He likely would have mentioned that DF from PSII came from the Earthmen if it had, since it's kind of important). Saying "he never said this couldn't happen, so you can't disprove my argument" shifts the burden of proof away from you, and that isn't how arguments work.

Finally, does Dark Force truly die when defeated? At least in PSIII (which I know a lot of people do not regard as canon, but it is canon), he doesn't die when defeated. If that were the case, it could explain him being defeated at the end of PSI, and being on Earth well before the start of PSII.

Edit: I am not saying you are wrong (BenoitRen or anyone else), just that there isn't enough information within the game to do anything other than advance our own theories.

Oh, and regarding a fan translation as canonical over the official translation is silly to me. But, as with anything, the only way to know for certain is to actually become fluent in Japanese

[etony33]

Heh, a lightbulb just went off in my head.

Dark Force could have been brought to Earth by the Alisa III (if Aron's ending occured). Just a thought, and one that actually would make a lot of sense. Then he could go on Noah to Algo, board the Alisa III...and you have a crazy time warp situation like Garland from Final Fantasy I.

[etony33]

That would also explain why there were two Dark Forces at that time - one on the spaceship Noah, one terrorizing the Alisa III. Thing is, it was actually the same Dark Force.

-PD creates DF
-DF boards Alisa III
-Orakio traps DF in the Sunken Palace
-Aron frees DF
-Aron and friends fight DF
-DF is defeated, but doesn't actually die because he runs his mouth afterwards
-Alisa III goes through a black hole, ending up at Earth while it was still civilized, and DF is still on the ship
-DF corrupts Earthmen
-Earthmen destroy Earth, build spaceship Noah, go to Algo, create Mother Brain
-Rolf and Friends kill DF.

Makes sense to me.

[BenoitRen]

One problem with that: how did Dark Force end up on Earth without there being an Alisa III to hop on in the first cycle, when there were no Earthmen to create Mother Brain and start the events of Phantasy Star II?

[etony33]

Easy. The Dark Force that Profound Darkness released during that era simply hopped on Alisa III as it was leaving. He came BACK to that era after Alisa III went through the black hole. It's kind of like in Back to the Future, how Marty goes back in time and changes the events of his present due to what he did when he went into the past. Although, it is confusing how that would work.