PSU linking to the old games

[BenoitRen]

That's the very reason I didn't like tales of symphonia

Did you actually play the entire game?

[Edless]

Indeed yes, I finished the whole game, discovered who my father was (even if I wasn't really looking for him) got betrayed, saw the plot twist and saved the world.

The game in itself is a good game but it is too much spoiled by the atmosphere of those teenage, over reacting to every single event that happens in the game. The goofy heroin (the running gag of her falling on the floor... ) and the hero over reacting when he says "oh my god, if the price to pay for saving the world is you becoming an angel (thus no more sleeping, no more eating, no more pain) I'd rather not save the world because you are losing your humanity" ... he says that even before he becames aware of the angel scam.

The game is too full of its own "good sentiments" and utopic ideas (typical when it comes to teenage thoughts and thinking) and that overdramatisation makes the game flat.
Of course we can say that there are some mature stuff and some strong sentiments, for example when you see the Axe girl acting like an automate next to a corps or the former prisonner who swears to never use his fist again but that is spoiled by the teenage atmospher floating all around. (plus that is so over dramatised, it's like over reacting like teenagers. It becomes less credible, a good example being the time when all your friends "sacrifice themselves" so that you can continue).

In a nutshell, the problem in tales of symphonia and in many Japanese RPGs nowadays is that characters are cliché and have stereotyped reactions fit for a younger audience. Characters do lack a personality and just reacts to what is commonly accepted as being wrong. They are too politicaly correct.

. Then I'll try to answer your question black Waltz. I think PS with its 4 games puted-on a solid universe that doesn't need a darkforce to be coherent anymore.
There are still major problems in the Algo solar system and many things to do. The climate control, climate shift issue is a rather big problem and is quite close from our own climate issue. It's a good opportunity to talk about it. Then we can have wars, ghosts, biomonsters or extraterrestrials, as long as we see the Motavian Parmian and dezolian reacting accordingly to their culture, it will have a phantasy star feeling.
Like for the star wars universe, even if at first it was all about Dark vador and the empire, nowadays, it became a universe in itself and what's important is to see E.T. a hunter guild wookies and maybe jedis.

[BenoitRen]

But now you're changing your opinion around! You said you didn't like Tales of Symphonia because of the whole chosen thing, saving the world, and such. But now you say it's about the themes and the teenage atmosphere.

In any case, I see your point.

[Thanatos]

Forren: I am detecting a threadjack. Redirecting...

Thanatos: Thank you Forren.

Getting on track and simultaneously finishing off this argument, even Rudy/Chaz didn't want any part of being one of the chosen. Perhaps Sega realized the idea had been done a bit too much, and they needed a protagonist that suffered most of the same things as his predecessors, but also had the sense to not follow blindly as they did. He decided 'Okay, one more time. We kill this btch, and no future generations have to worry about it.'.

But if they're trying to link these new games to the old ones... OOPS! At least PSO didn't have a specific protagonist. Heck, the only constant character involved besides yourself was Rico, and we see what happened there!

All things considered, should they be linking to the old games? In the small, simple ways they're doing it, sure. But not in the blatant re-use of the name of a place, being the complete antithesis of what it once was. Call it something else, anything else, and let people think it's an anti-homage to Rykros, but don't USE the same name! That's just outright lazy!

[Cherok]

Considering that's the basic PS plotline, how would YOU create a different basic plotline while keeping the whole 'PS' feel to it?

Just plan the story around it being years and years in the future or past, and don't make it so epic. I'd love to see some of the individual stories of people living within the Algo system that didn't have to 'save the universe'.

Get this: Shenmue meets Parasite Eve... All based in on Motabia just as it's being colonized by Parmans.

There's no saying that it has to follow the traditional epic-ness of a bunch of kids saving a world of guns by swinging their swords around. Smaller scale

And in response, they SHOULD be linking these new titles to the old titles. The old PS team also SHOULD all be developing the game, and it SHOULD be entirely Two dimensional in graphics and lastly BO and Ippo SHOULD be doing the soundtrack! Oh, and I SHOULD still be 8 years old for writing this.

Debate or no debate, the present shows us that unfortunatley, regardless of whether we thought the new games achieved even a hint of what the old games did, they are here and they are what they are. Don't like it? Don't play it. Don't buy it.

[Edless]

Indeed your right Benoit, I have put my focus on the teenage thing. It is in fact the part that I find the most debatable in the "Teenage saving the world" sentence. Then I don't mind a saving the world senario if it's correctly thought.

Then onto the PSU linking
To me, the only important thing in phantasy star is the different races that made it an original game.
The birds, the greens, the human (with crossed human-biomonster) and androids ; (Motavians, Dezolians, Parmians, Newmans (there is finaly only one newman that appeared in the serie Fal/Rika being a geneticaly modified clone of Nei) and androids). Like in Final Fantasy you get to see chocobos and mog (at least) and then black mage etc...

From that starting point you can tell me anything, I'll consider it to be a phantasy star. (For example saying they went to another galaxie they named Gural and then got attacked by ET and seeds, it would be okay because there is a link, even if it were as bad of a link as this one)

I think it would have been fun to see in the weapon shops dezolian or motavian sellers (even if they were not a playable races and even if they don't get to have a big role in the story).
It's nice to be talked to by cute waitresses but, having to talk to cute girls is something you do in every game. It's not specialy linked to PS serie.
Neither do elves (Newmans) or beasts have a special intimate link with PS serie.

It's a pitty because PS had many unique things to create and develop its own original universe and as we see in marketing, the creation of a unique and recognisable universe is nowadays a major key to success. (Coca Cola has created its universe, orangina did too, Apple etc).

[Black Waltz 0]

I dunno about focussing a plotline around the worlds withering and having to conserve the planets and stuff, because then it would be a rehash of the Wild Arms series. (PS and WA have many similarities).

I wonder what would happen if a worldship crashed on Filgaia...

[Lord Khyron]

[quote]In a nutshell, the problem in tales of symphonia and in many Japanese RPGs nowadays is that characters are cliché and have stereotyped reactions fit for a younger audience. Characters do lack a personality and just reacts to what is commonly accepted as being wrong. They are too politicaly correct.
[\quote]

As opposed to the Phantasy star Series which games 1 and 2 have characters with practically no dialogue? No personalities present by dialogue? Also game 3 with BARELY any character development?

As opposed to Alis who decides for revenge and to kill who killed her foster brother? Wow.. what a NORMAL REACTION for revenge. What a normal teenage reaction to want to get EVEN. That is all her quest was about. REVENGE.

As opposed to Rolf who just goes on a exploring mission, gets his sister killed.. He wants revenge.. Slaughters HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of Earthmen just because Lutz won't let him go home..

Do I need to go on? Even Phantasy Star has the same basic teenage reactions you hate. Talk about flawed logic.

Even older RPGS have the same damn cliches. Nothing has changed.

[Edless]

I dunno about focussing a plotline around the worlds withering and having to conserve the planets and stuff, because then it would be a rehash of the Wild Arms series. (PS and WA have many similarities).

Well, at least in phantasy star, there is a reason for it to happen. Since PSII, PS serie has a close connection with climate issues.

We could use that theme to realise our generation "phantasy" to control the climate.
If you had to control the climate, change it to your convenience "like in PSIII in order to take the boat".
Can you imagine making a game in which the whole planet reacts to your will on changing climate. It could become a sims or an animal crossing on a globale scale with you having to modulate the climate in the right proportions.
You could go with your team like a normal RPG walk the planet and in each village hear about villagers complains "we don't have enought rain in this zone", "I wish it could snow so that we could cross the river", or talking to Motavian "Our people live best in a desertic climate, it makes the garbage scouting easier"

It could be a whole new concept, a whole new start for the serie with a link and a deep conection with its past.

Then if you just want a normal RPG, you could go for something like "once again a thousand years have past, and on Mota, you are a hunter who is given the mission to rediscover an ancient technologic base, as you go through the game, you discover the one who gave you that assignment knows about the climate control existence and history. Being on the lead of a huge corporation/organisation he has been told about all that stuff by his scientific departement and is now hungry for that new kind of power"

Through the game you'll get to meet once again with Foren and Flena, talk to dezolian who aren't to happy to hear about climate control and neither are the motavians. Parmian living on mota are ok with the idea of controling the climate because the organisation of the "big daddy" has a rather good communication and is promoting the idea of a better futur and easy harvests through climate control but only few people are aware of that double edge sword that could also make things worse (for dezolian and motavian at least) because the organisation doesn't take in consideration other species, the nature and the existing animals.

I don't know for you but on my side, I'm pretty sure that's a story I could believe and play through with all my attention. I love the idea to go against a corporation and taking in count minorities going against the general people ideas.

Maybe you could meet and team with the great great great great gran child of Chaz and Rika because their family always taught there children the dangerousness of climate control, The Asheley family being aware thanks to their ancestor who were rather saavy when it comes Algo's history. That Miss or mister Ashley would be the leader of an anti climate control milice.

ecetera ecetera... you could go on forever with that idea using once again what we know about PS history.

[Edless]

(...)

Do I need to go on? Even Phantasy Star has the same basic teenage reactions you hate. Talk about flawed logic.

Even older RPGS have the same damn cliches. Nothing has changed.

I think you are wrong because we are not in the same era.
First, back then any game was original because of the lack of competition or RPG on the market.
Then because back then the fact that characters didn't have dialogues made things easier for the player to give them the personality he wanted, based on what he was seeing in the character design and the character abilities.
It's like going from a book to a movie you tend to get disappointed when things precise themselves.
The third point being that the character back then were based on a conception of the society. (in a society, you have old people, young people etc).
I can't seem to find the character age for PSII but because it was an information I didn't know, I've always thought the caracter to be at least 20, 25 years old because they already had a job before the adventure.

It's totaly different in FFX-2 which is clearly about young pop cultur or tales of symphonia.

There is no flaw in that logic because the proof of the imaturity of the heroes of old games is nowhere to be seen whereas in tales of symphonia and co. it is omnipresent in every dialogues. That's why my post on the top of this page can't be applied to most of the RPG we used to play on 16 bits.

By that I don't say that games where better when I was 6, I just say that things have evolved and I'm happy with the games which have heroes in their 20's or 30's or more and seem to have had a life and some experience rather than the gullible heroes we might see in shonen aimed manga/video games/anime.

I love Alucard in Sotn, the heroes of death note (who despite their age show a rather high intelligence and maturity) I love other things too but since I'm always making posts which are too long I won't go anyfurther.

I hope I could explain my logic correctly and I'd like to know everyone's view on such a topic (PSU or the teenage heroes) because I think it's an interesting debate to see how the society tends to give the impression revolve around youngsters as opposed to the society of the mid 80's, 90's.
A society which reflects itself through its games